Question for Harley Riders Who believe in “Loud Pipes Save Lives”?
3 serious questions, please don't pick a fight. THank you.
1. If 'safety' is really the reason for you guys to install your aftermarket loud pipes, why most of the Harley riders don't wear a DOT approved helmet but a weak, plastic Harley chopper helmet? I've seen so many Harley riders even ride with no helmets in some states, but of course they have the loudest pipes on this planet.
2. If safety is really heart of the issue, why most of you guys don't spend the money to go to a motorcycle defensive driving training? Hurts report says that 95% of the riders who involved in an accident has never received any formal motorcycle training.
3. If safety is really your first concern, why do you have to ride with a black leather jacket, not a bright color , reflective jackets, as most DMVs suggest? Do you care about style more, or safety more.
Anyone? Answers? Please, no fight.
1.I think the loud pipes are there for two different reasons. One being that a loud bike does get noticed because it is loud and the second is they are making up for being beat up as a child. I have a Harley with stock pipes and aways ride with a DOT helmet. But to defend Harley riders they are not the only bikes with loud pipes. Everybody is putting them on their bikes now I personally think they are trying to make them sound like a Harley.
2. I have went to a drivers training class they are offered free in my state and they take 10% off your insurance once you have completed the course.
3.The black leather jacket is style and history, black jacket have been worn for centuries and who cares as long as it will protect you if you happen to go down. I went down back in 89 and was glad I had leather to protect my side and a helmet on since my head did hit the pavement but luck as on my side and no injuries. I just think as long as your trying to protect yourself that is the best reason for wearing it.
And last I ride a Harley but that does not make me different than anyone else riding a bike does not matter of the manufacture go out have fun and be safe.
I want no fight from the following answers. It’s just my opinion.
I think the "Loud pipes save lives" thing is just more or less and excuse. Just my opinion.
As a motorcyclist who use to teach MSF safety courses, I want to take a stab at this. The loud pipes crowd-to which I am a member-but not obnoxiously loud-has a good point. Face a fact-when you drive down the road, which bike do you notice first-the quiet Honda Goldwing, or the bike with loud pipes? The loud pipes bike draws attention to itself, because you can hear it, even if it is coming toward you. You hear it better when it has passed you because the noise while some travels ahead and to the side of the bike, by in large the greatest amount is toward the rear, where the exhaust exit is. Many of us "louder than stock" (and again I personally HATE obnoxiously loud cars, trucks or bikes), change the exhaust because we want to add personality to our bikes, not that we are trying to add a safety feature (the loud sound). That (the sound) is a secondary benefit. A lot of us HAVE gone to MSF training courses (I use to teach it when I lived back in PA). I agree with you that the training should be the primary defense, but in this day and age, any advantage I’ll take after losing too many friends over the years in bike related accidents with other vehicles.
Most of your questions center more on personal choice issues. Statistically speaking is the car you drive-white, yellow, or bright purple? These colors are noticed more often than green, black, blue etc. And if safety was YOUR goal, should you not be driving a bright colored car? As for Helmets-that is a personal choice issue as well, the funny thing about statistics is that they can be manipulated to support either side, and helmet vs non helmeted rider injuries is one of those issues. In some cases a helmet helps, in other cases it actually causes more damage to the body. depends on type of accident and too many variables to get into here.
Bottom line, we live in a country where person freedom and choice abound. If you wanted to ride with or without a helmet, with or without protective gear-jacket, pants, boots, gloves etc, on a bike with loud pipes or quiet ones, I would support you, and welcome you. But to come into a motorcycle forum and to question people who CHOOSE to ride what they want, as they want to, is a little, well insulting, quiet honestly.
"Loud Pipes Save Lives" is not more or less an excuse, it is a complete sham. There is no validity to it whatever. The primary interest of Harley riders is to be noticed, not for reasons of safety, but for reasons that appeal only to the narcissist. That answers #1 and #3.
As for #2, there are some people, you can’t tell them anything. In the case of Harley riders, you can’t tell them they ride like sh!t, even though most of them ride like sh!t. They would benefit from a basic MSF course, but as I said, you can’t tell them anything.
I’ve never heard anyone say The Reason They Have Loud Pipes Is Safety.
I have heard ( and experienced) that loud pipes get a bike noticed when it might not be otherwise.
Helmet laws suck, it’s an infringement on my rights, I have several helmets, I wear the one I feel like wearing, most often the beenie.
If I leave the state and enter one that does not require a helmet it’s off.
I’ve been riding 42 years ( Probably longer than you’ve been alive) I went to a MSF course when I taught the ol’ lady to ride 8 or so years ago and I’m a bit beyond that stuff.
Sorry son , But I don’t care for the "Power Rangers " look and black or brown leather suits me just fine.
I appreciate your concern , but I think I’ll be just fine without your helpful suggestions.
Point 2 is a seriously flawed point, as probably 92% of riders on the road have not received any training. That leaves only a small (tiny) percentage of the riding population contributing to any reliable numbers in measuring accident rate.
Helmet wearing is debatable, as a lot of the time in serious accidents it is only the difference between dead and paralyzed. Some would rather be dead than spend the rest of their life paying hospital bills and shi$ing in a bag.
No debate in the last one, visibility is key. This is because the #1 biggest risk to bike riders is other drivers. This choice is usually made in consideration of convention and style.
And at last, Pipes rarely save lives, but they can help in a few situations. The real reason for the push against regulation is personal choice. We like our loud pipes, and most responsible riders will rarely have noise complaints leveled against them, as they don’t rev their motors excessively when in quiet environments.
Not really to fight, but it sounds like you have made up your mind already. Just think how much safer if the biggest cause of motorcycle accidents on the road had training to increase our (riders) safety. Yes that means all you cage rats. How about putting the celly and make-up brush down and paying attention to the road and those on it. Use you’re blinker. Check your blind spot.
Remember next time you hear a set of pipes that cause a minor disturbance in your otherwise quiet little life, we don’t like your big, smelly, gas guzzling cars either. To each their own. You don’t see us tring to outlaw cages.
I have loud pipes because I like the vroom - vroom sound. I wear a DOT approved helmet because I would rather have scrambled eggs than scrambled brains.
I am in the 5% who spent the $$$ to attend a motorcycle safety school.
I belong to a motorcycle club and wear a black leather vest to display the club colors. I ALWAYS ride day or night with the headlight on. Therefore I can satisfy my need for style and safety.
OK, I’m going to step out there (in numerical order) Keep in mind I’m not defending or criticizing loud pipes, and I myself have baffled and tuned Screamin’ Eagle slip-ons on a ‘06 Heritage Softail, and wear a helmet less than 50% of the time.
1- The reality is only some riders have the very loud obnoxious kind of pipes. Most all the beanie helmets are DOT approved: that style is worn to barely meet law enforcement’s definition of helmet where there is a H/L in effect. Not a good helmet by any definition, but it is what it is. In a crash, the beanie protects just the brain(the control center of the body) with the thinking that other body damage can heal to ride another day. Riding without one is a personal choice, and therefore the logic behind being heard with very loud pipes lessens the possibility of being smacked due to commanding a distracted driver’s attention.(not the kind you’re thinking of -NOT a superficial scream for attention) Yes, the shallow screams do happen, but these are a small percentage compared to ALL Harleys in service.
2- I would re-check the facts concerning age differences of crash ‘victims’, while cross-referencing the completion of training; From the beginning of the modern era of riding a motorcycle: the 40’s to 1967(Canada), & 1976 (usa) there was no motorcycle training and no defensive driving course until 1985. With only years of experience to base traffic decisions on, some have developed bad habits, some good,…either way, that experience teaches one how to drive (ride) defensively quite naturally. The riders that have been in one vehicle crashes whether experienced or novice really have no excuse. In motorcycling, there is no such thing as an "accident". Competent riders know that.
3- The style Vs.safety section is a subjective question but gets an answer anyway…thats like asking someone on death row "firing squad or hanging?"
The objective of every rider is to reach the destination and not crash. Bottom line. The answer lies in between the lines of answer #1, and #2; If a rider is heard and not smacked by another driver, the visibility comes from hearing. if the rider is competent and able to ride defensively and "read the road", traffic,patterns and the cues to other driver’s behavior, the goal is achieved: not crashing. To say a rider is not concerned with safety because a black leather jacket is utilized instead of a reflective/brightly colored one is stereotyping.
-what hard hat boy wonder doesn’t understand is that in Texas for example where helmets are not mandated there is a helmet exemption sticker. -in order to get an exemption sticker one must prove he/she has personal injury protection insurance. You can still ride without a helmet, but if you do crash and become paralyzed, Invalid crash victims without exemption stickers pay their own way from any social security built up, not from the taxpayers. This is administered by the state and that makes insurance less expensive -thats the beauty of the Texas Constitution: freedom of choice, AND legislative powers not enjoyed by any other state. -Just goes to show you can’t legislate common sense. he’s living proof of that. People who scream for federal law every time they get their panties in a wad are asking for trouble. The citizenry shouldn’t be afraid of their government. Its the government that should be afraid of the citizens.(boy wonder a taxpayer? not hardly)
If you hand over total control, you are a subject.
If you stand up for yourself, you are a citizen.
Harley Davidson explains it best.Live to ride/Ride to live.You have your preference;we have ours.
No fight? Seems you are the one picking a fight against Harley. I have heard loud pipes on every make of motorcycle.
Harley Davidson does not make a novelty helmet. All Harley helmets meet DOT requirements and some are SNELL approved. I have 2 shorty and 3 fullface helmets, all are DOT approved. In addition to always wearing a helmet, I also wear boots and gloves when I ride.
Experience does count for something. I do recommend that all new motorcyclists take a riders course so they can benefit of the knowledge of others.
I have a black leather jacket, a white leather jacket, a denim jacket, and a red textile jacket, all for your viewing pleasure. I also have a yellow reflective rainsuit.
Loud pipes do save lives. Motorcyclists are invisible to other drivers on the road. If you hear a bike but can’t see it, you will be looking for it.
Guys, you guys are cool enough with or without the loud pipes, why not just ride it quietly, don’t wake the babies and old folks up, this way everyone is happy. And if you want to be more safe, fine, just do what this guy suggests, wear a good helmet, receive some good training, wear a good bright jacket. This way, you’re safe, you’re happy, and they’re happy. No more fight.
There are tons of ways to make yourself safer on the road, why you must pick the one that brings disturb to neighbors? Afterall we all live in the same community, same country. I love this country. I bet 99.9% of you do too. You love your country by obeying and respecting the laws. Am I right?
People seldom complain buses, trains or other things that make noise, why they’re mostly after the Harley riders? They do it for a reason - you guys can be very annoying sometimes. I don’t hate you. You guys mostly have very good driving habbits. It’s nothing against you as the person, but your big loud pipes. The noise travels backward to all the victims behind you while you’re gone. You realize that?
As a taxpayer its not fair to me why I have to pay for medical bills for a biker that crashed not wearing a helmet!
Just because he’s stupid not wearing a helmet he turned into a vegetable for the rest of his life, he can’t work and pay taxes and I have to pay taxes to keep him alive!
That’s why I believe it should be a federal law that’s its mandatory everybody must wear a FULL FACE, helmet, (NO skull caps, half helmets)
EDIT: I agree with Aussie
My view?
Loud pipes do not save lives. Loud pipes aren’t heard by motorists in front of the bike. They are obnoxious to the motorists beside and behind the bike. They are intended for one thing, personal pleasure. I like louder than stock and actually think many Harley (and other bikes) sound good with loud pipes as long as they’re not tooth rattling loud. They are a statement for sure. They individualize us. I have stock pipes on my bike but plan to replace them later on when I decide whether or not to keep this bike or buy a new one.
Helmet laws are there for a purpose and not just to intimidate people. I wear a full face or a half helmet. Either way, I wear one no matter what the law is and nobody looks down on me for it. I believe helmets save lives. When florida repealed the helmet laws their death rate jumped 30% for bikers in the first year. The facts are there if you want to look them up. I think insurance companies should be able to limit their coverages to people that opt to go topless. If you make a decision to not wear a helmet, your monetary rewards should be almost nothing.
As far as protective clothing? When there is no law concerning using a bright headlight during the day and we have the options of super HID light on our machines…..WHY conform to what people think should be a noticable color? If that old lady or that drunk man didn’t see that laser on the front of that bike you can bet your last dollar they didn’t look beyond it to see the bright colored jacket he or she was wearing! The cold hard facts are that most automobile drivers don’t even notice a light on a motorcycle. The conditioning of the drivers today is making them more aware of bikes and that is only because of the increasing number of motorcycles on the road. I hate to admit it, but that is one thing you can thank sports bikes for. Drivers are becoming increasingly aware that a bike is running faster than a bicycle becasue they are being passed at 135mph on a daily basis.
Not picking a fight - this is my view.
I ALWAYS wear a helmet as they have saved my life more then once
I always wear gloves as I need my hands to make my money
loud pipes get other road users attention - that’s why cop cars have sirens not bells & whistles.
70% of bike accidents are caused by car drivers ” oh I didn’t see you ”
To get a bike license now days you must do a safety course - when I started you didn’t
I have reflective tape on my helmet, but if car drivers don’t want to see you they won’t.You could let off a nuke & they’d ignore it!
Yes I have a black jacket & vest,I also have one with reflective patches for night ridding & dull days - as well as a headlight and tail light that are always lit up when the keys on ( standard Harley safety thing )
Hope you are more enlightened now.
i think the half helmet is because were not afraid to show are face if i rode some piece of crap i would probly be embarrassed and have a fullface helmet to
Loud Pipes do Save lives, makes drivers more aware of motorcycles. (This is why the Police bikes in Oakland, CA are now equipped with straight pipes) these are Police bikes, white with lights and a siren, highly trained riders, yet the OPD deemed it necessary to install "LOUD PIPES" on its police bikes, for safety purposes. (using a emergency vehicle clause in California’s noise ordinance, Police bikes like fire trucks are exempt from noise standards)
Also a note on helmets: The percentage of fatalities directly linked to head injuries is almost 3 times as great in a car as on a bike. (on a bike you are actually more likely to die from bodily injury but in a car more likely to die from a head injury) Yet there is no call for a helmet law for drivers and passengers in cars!
Try wearing a full face helmet in stop and go traffic when it’s 120+ in the shade (Phoenix) Your inside helmet temperature may exceed 200 causing severe dehydration and heat stroke. There are people passing out from the heat everyday and that is without the elevated temperatures inside a helmet and other safety gear.
1. I wear a DOT approved helmet. Couldn’t find any cheap plastic helmets at my Harley dealer. My pipes arn’t loud but mellow. I’ve heard plenty of H.W.B.(harley wanta be) with louder pipes than mine.
2. Yes the wife and I both have been through a MSF course and I think it should be required for all motorcyclist as well as drivers of cages.
3.And what makes you think someone is going to see you with all the reflective gear when they can’t see you stopped at a red light at night with my brake light on and they still smack you in the ass.
I have heard a louder bike before a quiet one when riding in a cage, and appreciate the alert I get when they are coming into my area. It is nice to have a heads up on a smaller vehicle close to me, when it is easy to not notice them otherwise because of blind spots in the car. Ive a very quiet Honda, and I don’t get heard unless I am sitting right next to the guy at a light.
A helmet in most states has to be worn, but nothing says it has to be a full face. Quite a few guys ride just to have the wind in their face, and you can’t do that unless you have something less than a full face helmet. Some guys just don’t like the thought of the government telling what they will wear when riding in and of itself is an expression of total freedom.
As for pinging on Harley guys for accidents with no training, the reality is the majority of the statistics show that group to be guys on sports bikes, and not cruisers so that part of you question is misplaced. I don’t wear a vest anymore because I got tired of being targeted by cars driven by guys that had issues with bikes. Wearing that vest seemed to set some people off and they would do whatever they could to make the ride dangerous.
As far as the "loud pipes saves lives", the Oakland, California Police Department thinks so. See following news articles:
http://www.clutchandchrome.com/News/0806/News0806036.htm
http://motorcycles.about.com/b/2008/06/16/oakland-motorcycle-cops-stir-controversy-with-loud-pipes.htm
http://www.cyrilhuzeblog.com/2008/06/12/oakland-police-department-wants-louder-pipes-on-its-harleys/
You’ll notice from the articles that, even though federal law states a maximum of 80 decibels, the cops are going for 93 decibels (who’s gonna write THEM a ticket?) Is this a case of "do as I say, not as I do"? Or, is it "I’m above the law"?
By the way, my shorty helmet IS DOT approved!
Also, do you know what testing is needed for a helmet to become DOT approved?
"Most motorcycle helmet standards use impacts at speeds between 4–7 m/s (9–16 mph)."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorcycle_helmet
Finally, my shorty helmet is about the same thing that the bike cops (full time professional riders) wear!
Truthfully it really doesn’t matter. I’ll admit that I hate the sound of straight pipes on a big V twin, but as long as it is legal we really have no right to question their motives. We are lucky enough to live in a free country and if it were one of your rights being questioned you wouldn’t appreciate it. Anyone that takes issue with the laws as they stand should deal with it through the proper channels, your governor, senator, etc., not by coming down on citizens that are just exercising their rights.
Watch people standing at a bus stop when a loud bike goes by: they are startled and stare at the bike AFTER it has gone by. Why? Because the sound comes out the back, obviously. They are NOT forewarned of the presence of the bike as it approaches, only annoyed by it as it leaves.
NO study has EVER found a correlation between loud pipes and lives saved: NONE!
Harley riders (and others) enjoy loud pipes because they think they’re cool. No other reason. I think they’re wrong.
Another point: Harley riders also love to wear leather chaps. Unfortunately, almost all riders who crash will land on their rear end, which is unprotected by chaps, because it is near the human body’s centre of mass. This is simply another example of function being sacrificed in the name of style, as is the case with "beanie" helmets (or no helmet at all), fingerless gloves, sleeveless jackets, even leather halter tops for the ladies!
But I am being unfair: the sportbike crowd has its own share of T-shirt, shorts-and-sandals riders: Image above all else!